[Carfreeliving] BoS Land Use -- Market/Octavia freeway ramp

Thu Nov 3 14:48:19 MST 2005

a good example is cars coming to a complete stop at stop signs, a law
violated constantly since it really doesn't seem to make sense much of
the time.

________________________________

	From: Carfreeliving-bounces at livablecity.org
[mailto:Carfreeliving-bounces at livablecity.org] On Behalf Of Mike
Sallaberry
	Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 1:02 PM
	To: Carfreeliving at livablecity.org
	Subject: Re: [Carfreeliving] BoS Land Use -- Market/Octavia
freeway ramp

	Well, my point was not at all "this is a burden to motorists"
but "this is a crash waiting to happen."  Multiple crashes actually,
since at least one has happened.  Sorry I didn't make that more clear.
My concern is safety, perceived vs actual, for cyclists here, and the
concern that the crashes will be bad given cyclists' speeds with the
downhill and prevailing tailwind, and the general sudden-ness of
motorists' movements which are illegal. 

	The street could be designed to position the likely manageable
number of right turning motorists per signal cycle out of cyclists' ways
if we were allowed to do so.  Movements from a right turn lane right
against the curb would be just as slow, and more predictable. 

	And breaking the law, traffic or otherwise, especially if the
law seems silly or unnecessary, is certainly human nature.  I'm sure
nearly every person on this list does it on a regular basis. 

	Mike

"Brinkman, Cheryl" <Cheryl.Brinkman at McKesson.com> 
Sent by: Carfreeliving-bounces at livablecity.org 

11/03/2005 12:39 PM 

To
Carfreeliving at livablecity.org 
cc
Subject
Re: [Carfreeliving] BoS Land Use -- Market/Octavia freeway ramp

	Oh poor drivers!  Having to push their widdle foots on the gas
pedal for a few more seconds to get to the other legal freeway on-ramps.
Let's charge them ten bucks to get on and off and see how they like
that.  They'll be wishing for the days of a few extra blocks to drive. 

	Sorry,  I know I know: Sarcasm helps no one. 

	As I mentioned at the BOS Land Use yesterday, there are some
cars making illegal right turns onto the freeway - but they have to do
it pretty darn slowly because the turn is greater then 90 degrees, and
they end up in the left lane of the freeway.  It's not a fast turn, and
so is less dangerous.  Those law breakers are less likely to hit someone
going slowly. 

	The no right turn onto the freeway is a burden only for drivers
who start their trips in the 3 blocks of Market street between Duboce
and the freeway.  Everyone else can turn on Duboce, improving the flow
on Duboce probably would help, it's not a transit or bike route as was
pointed out yesterday. 

	Why is still considered acceptable for cyclists to have go to
the bike route street (sometimes many blocks away)  to feel somewhat
safe, and peds to have cross three times to get across "no ped Crossing"
intersections to make things faster for cars - and  facilitate "traffic
flow", but making cars drive a few blocks further to facilitate ped and
bike safety is some odd hardship? 

	Breaking traffic laws is not human nature, it's learned behavior
due to a lack of enforcement and a sense of entitlement, and the fact
that many drivers are single moders.  They ONLY drive.  I don't think
it's pointless to try and make conditions better through design.  It may
be an uphill battle, but what isn't? 

	So, what was the upshot of yesterday's agenda item?  I had to
leave before the end. 

	Cheryl 

________________________________

	From: Mike Sallaberry [mailto:Mike.Sallaberry at sfgov.org] 
	Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 11:59 AM
	To: Carfreeliving at livablecity.org
	Subject: Re: [Carfreeliving] BoS Land Use -- Market/Octavia
freeway ramp

	Josh, I don't think you are accurately conveying what may happen
if the turn is allowed by saying that there will be "hundreds of cars
queuing."  That won't be the case, especially if there can be
improvements made to Duboce to make that a better route for
freeway-bound motorists. 

	Unfortunately, it looks like the decisions which lead to the
current No Right Turn at the intersection fail to acknowledge human
nature and the limitations of what facilities and enforcement can
accomplish.  Designing in a way counter to these realities is pointless.
It would be like installing a "Bikes walk bikes across crosswalk" sign
at the Fell-Masonic path crossing. 

	Mike

Joshua Switzky <Joshua.Switzky at sfgov.org> 
Sent by: Carfreeliving-bounces at livablecity.org 

11/02/2005 09:21 AM 

To
A P Thornley <apt at thornley.com> 
cc
Carfreeliving at livablecity.org 
Subject
Re: [Carfreeliving] BoS Land Use -- Market/Octavia freeway ramp

	the right turn is even greater than a bike or ped issue -- it's
about
	encouraging and facilitating the use of Market as a freeway
on-ramp. If the
	right-turn movement is allowed, this won't be one or two
incidental cars
	and hour, this will be hundreds of cars queuing on market street
that
	aren't there now, that will not just back up across the bike
lane, but into
	the travel lane, and onto the F-line tracks. All these cars now
use Duboce
	(not a transit route, not a bike route), and have been doing so
for 50
	years. Why invite all these cars to stay on Market for two or
three more
	blocks and queue on Market Street, where the impacts are 100
times greater?
	-j

	           A P Thornley

	           <apt at thornley.com

	           >
To 
	           Sent by:
Carfreeliving at livablecity.org       
	           Carfreeliving-bou
cc 
	           nces at livablecity.

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Subject 
	                                     [Carfreeliving] BoS Land
Use --     
	                                     Market/Octavia freeway ramp

	           11/01/2005 11:01

	           PM

	Good people of all modes, but especially you Pedestrian
Advocates --

	Tomorrow (Weds 11/2) the BoS Land Use Committee will be hearing
from
	DPT and others on the Market/Octavia freeway ramp, a status
report,
	what's dangerous, what needs fixing. The banned right turn off
EB
	Market onto the freeway has been made by some into a bike lane
issue,
	but much more than that it's a pedestrian issue -- no matter
where
	the bike lane is positioned (against the curb, to the left of a
turn
	pocket), pedestrians are imperiled by the fast downhill careless
turn
	onto the freeway (the most common pedestrian injury/fatality?
seems
	like there's a superlative statistic I've heard about fast turns
and
	injuries) . . .

	So it'd be great to get a few eloquent pedestrians up for
comment at
	tomorrow's meeting. It starts at 1:00 pm (City Hall, Room 263)
but
	the Octavia Market Freeway item probably won't come up till an
hour
	or two into the meeting (it's #5, the last item):

	   http://sfgov.org/site/bdsupvrs_page.asp?id=13956

	And if you can't come, please send Sup. Dufty a note
	(Bevan.Dufty at sfgov.org) . . .

	Use your bell,

	           --Andy--

	==== from the SFBC Bike Bulletin, pardon any repetition =====

	LAND USE COMMITTEE HEARS MARKET/OCTAVIA/FREEWAY CONCERNS WEDS
11/2

	The new central freeway ramp at Market and Octavia has been open
for
	almost two months, but that gnarly intersection is still missing
some
	key safety features to help assure pedestrians and cyclists of
safe
	passage along the street. This Wednesday (11/2) the Board of
	Supervisors' Land Use Committee (1:00 pm, City Hall, Room 263)
will
	conduct a hearing on the Market/Octavia freeway ramp, what's
been
	done so far and what's left to do. We'll be there to emphasize
the
	city's commitment to keeping Market Street a transit/ped/bike
space
	and not a freeway feeder route, and ask that colored bike lane
	pavement be installed across mouth of the freeway, as
recommended in
	the Board's August 2004 resolution banning the eastbound right
turn
	onto the freeway. (You may notice that a new bike lane has been
	striped along a key block on eastbound Market St. near the new
	freeway ramp, but it's not a colored bike lane as it should be
to
	draw more attention to this tricky area.)

	Please come to this hearing if you can, and contact Supervisor
Dufty
	(Bevan.Dufty at sfgov.org) and let him know that you want colored
bike
	pavement ~now~ as part of the safety treatments for this
intersection.

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